From jussi.laakkonen at assembly.org Mon Apr 14 23:22:18 2008 From: jussi.laakkonen at assembly.org (Jussi Laakkonen) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:22:18 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] ASSEMBLY Summer 2008 Message-ID: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> Gents & ladies, ASSEMBLY Summer 2008 takes place in roughly 3,5 months, and I'm sure quite a few of you are already working on your compo entries. Here's a quick status update on all things demoscene related: - compo rule drafts have been published with quite a few big changes at http://www.assembly.org/summer08/compos - stereo sound is coming to the main hall - big screen is going 16x9, exact size to be announced later - as requested, oldskool has been renamed to demoscene area and moved back to 3rd floor - a lounge with screen, projector and audio system etc has been added to demoscene area. Plug in what you will and show your stuff. - we need to think if scenebooth should move here (more synergy) or remain where it is (better visibility to non-sceners). Either way works for us. - we are looking for speakers to the ARTtech seminars. Email me if you are interested. - if you are interested in doing demos using the "grid demo" infrastructure (i.e. synching 3000+ screens to a scroller and other funky stuff), email me =). - if you are interested in using the big and bright LCD screens in the main hall to show off some cool stuff, you know what to do (email me! =)) This is the 17th ASSEMBLY Summer event and you can expect all the good things (great compos, cool people, good organizing). We've read thru (naturally) the thread in which we discussed ASMS07, but in case there is something you'd like to us to take into account with this event, do feel free to email me directly. Looking forward to seeing many of you at ASSEMBLY Summer 2007! -- Best regards, Mr. Jussi Laakkonen (a.k.a Abyss // ASSEMBLY Organizing & FC) partner, co-founder ASSEMBLY Organizing Ltd - http://www.assembly.org cellular: +358-40-582 3959 - snailmail: PL 160, 00381 Helsinki, Finland From martti.roitto at utu.fi Tue Apr 15 01:19:53 2008 From: martti.roitto at utu.fi (Martti Roitto) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:19:53 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> Message-ID: <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> Jussi Laakkonen wrote: > - compo rule drafts have been published with quite a few big changes at > http://www.assembly.org/summer08/compos "There will be one Music competion (sic) combining the Instrumental music and the Freestyle music compos from previous years. - - Likewise, the traditional Drawn Themed graphics and Freestyle graphics have been combined to a single compeittion (sic)." Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a welcome change? -- Martti "maraz" Roitto From arttu.haglund at cult.tpu.fi Tue Apr 15 04:21:14 2008 From: arttu.haglund at cult.tpu.fi (Arttu Haglund) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:21:14 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> Message-ID: <7ccfb7e04e33.48042d3a@tpu.fi> > Jussi Laakkonen wrote: > "There will be one Music competion (sic) combining the > Instrumental > music and the Freestyle music compos from previous years. - - > Likewise, > the traditional Drawn Themed graphics and Freestyle graphics have > been > combined to a single compeittion (sic)." > > Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a welcome change? > -- > Martti "maraz" Roitto You're absolutely not the only one with this thought. I think the compos have been riding the highway to hell because of ridiculous changes for some years now. Therefore, by now, I hate to see it, but Assembly - as a demoscene event - is starting to lose my interest. :( The way I see it, most of the changes have been bad for demoscene and the roots of this whole thing. It's been all about combining - I wonder if Assembly 2010 has only demo compo left and that's it - by then all the compos will surely be finally TRULY COMBINED? Musicwise, for example, the tracking scene is completely forgotten. This has been the situation for ages already. For a brief while, the fast music compo was the only choice for a tracker, but that's not the case anymore. Well, during this decade tracking scene has been somewhat forgotten in most of the other parties as well, but it sucks nevertheless. Combining vocal and instrumental music is not such a big problem, them having been divided was an artificial line to begin with, I think. But the multichannel compo should make its happy return. There is a free place for it, even, now that one music compo has been lost! Then again, combining drawn and freestyle graphics is just outrageous. Now that there is Assembly Winter, shouldn't Assembly Summer be profiled as a scene party even more than before? Well, that's probably not gonna happen, only the other way around. Let there be Quake, the money has spoken. --- Arttu Haglund of LiveCrew / ASMORG aka _LUKE_/Sixth Fire^Numedia Cyclops From jussi.laakkonen at assembly.org Tue Apr 15 08:24:23 2008 From: jussi.laakkonen at assembly.org (Jussi Laakkonen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:24:23 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> Message-ID: <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> Hi, > Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a welcome change? I'll let our Compocrew chime in on the details, but from my perspective having more categories does not correlate with better competitions, higher quality entries or with higher voter interest. I think the correlation is actually negative. Gloom kindly did some analysis in the thread were we discussed music compos after ASMS07, and it was pretty clear that almost nobody including demosceners on this list, bothered to vote in the two music compos. Improving the quality of the compo thru combining the artificially divided categories as well as the introducing a new sound system should improve this. We are also looking to other improvements in the music compo, but more about that later. The Drawn themed graphics has been a bit of hit and miss. The themes often have done nothing for the artists, who have had to adapt slightly their already work in progress art to the themes. Sometimes it has been obvious that no attention has been paid to the themes. The rule has thus been quite artificial. The technical limitations in the Drawn graphics were also out of touch with the realities of making "computer graphics" today. I've been thinking about multichannel, and perhaps the right place would be to add it to oldskool music compo but with 4k limit. Multichannel in the days of old was simply yet-another-streaming music compo with huge samples being used. Perhaps with a size limitation it could be re-introduced as a platform for oldskool music. Perhaps something similar (executable graphics in 4k?) could be added as a platform for oldskool graphics. Comments are very welcome as these are very early thoughts. From djjoge at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 09:46:50 2008 From: djjoge at gmail.com (Jouko Karhula) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:46:50 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> Message-ID: Hello, /me votes BIG TIME for any kind of tracked music visibility for Assembly :) I think that in BP the competitions were just great, with those categories: http://breakpoint.untergrund.net/compos_music.php It gave something for anybody: - Streaming music compo, so virtually anything big size stuff could be there (tracked, free style, whatever...) - Cool Oldschool compo, with those normal oldschool rules (well size limit was 32k for exe) - Newschool compo with 32k limit, so most tracked/softsynth/etc stuff could be here (having 4k limit would definitely drop off for example .it or .xm entries, so at least this 32k or even 64k would allow some creativity there as well). And stereo sound this time... finally!!! For example Amiga tunes having those channels mixed into mono did sound really horrible in last years at Assembly :) - Jouko "DJ Joge" Karhula On 15/04/2008, Jussi Laakkonen wrote: > > Hi, > > > Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a welcome change? > > I'll let our Compocrew chime in on the details, but from my > perspective having more categories does not correlate with better > competitions, higher quality entries or with higher voter interest. I > think the correlation is actually negative. > > Gloom kindly did some analysis in the thread were we discussed music > compos after ASMS07, and it was pretty clear that almost nobody > including demosceners on this list, bothered to vote in the two music > compos. Improving the quality of the compo thru combining the > artificially divided categories as well as the introducing a new sound > system should improve this. We are also looking to other improvements in > the music compo, but more about that later. > > The Drawn themed graphics has been a bit of hit and miss. The themes > often have done nothing for the artists, who have had to adapt slightly > their already work in progress art to the themes. Sometimes it has been > obvious that no attention has been paid to the themes. The rule has thus > been quite artificial. The technical limitations in the Drawn graphics > were also out of touch with the realities of making "computer graphics" > today. > > I've been thinking about multichannel, and perhaps the right place > would be to add it to oldskool music compo but with 4k limit. > Multichannel in the days of old was simply yet-another-streaming music > compo with huge samples being used. Perhaps with a size limitation it > could be re-introduced as a platform for oldskool music. > > Perhaps something similar (executable graphics in 4k?) could be added > as a platform for oldskool graphics. > > Comments are very welcome as these are very early thoughts. > > _______________________________________________ > Oldskool-list mailing list > Oldskool-list at assembly.org > http://justiina.assembly.org/mailman/listinfo/oldskool-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://justiina.assembly.org/pipermail/oldskool-list/attachments/20080415/b3d6c36c/attachment.html From bent at lorien.no Tue Apr 15 10:23:08 2008 From: bent at lorien.no (Bent Stamnes) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:23:08 +0200 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> Message-ID: > Gloom kindly did some analysis in the thread were we discussed music > compos after ASMS07, and it was pretty clear that almost nobody > including demosceners on this list, bothered to vote in the two music > compos. Improving the quality of the compo thru combining the > artificially divided categories as well as the introducing a new sound > system should improve this. A welcome change indeed -- bringing those two compos back together is a good thing, and stereo sound is a Good Thing(tm)! :) > Perhaps something similar (executable graphics in 4k?) could be > added > as a platform for oldskool graphics. 4k graphics is clearly the new hot thing indeed, so this would be really cool. -- Bent Stamnes - Scene.org Public Relations (www.scene.org) - ZINE senior editor (zine.bitfellas.org) - Organizer of the Solskogen demoparty (solskogen.demoscene.no) From vjuhakos at ulapland.fi Tue Apr 15 11:24:42 2008 From: vjuhakos at ulapland.fi (vjuhakos at ulapland.fi) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:24:42 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> Message-ID: <20080415112442.qjcquu1rksgo0okg@webmail2.ulapland.fi> Quoting Jussi Laakkonen : > The Drawn themed graphics has been a bit of hit and miss. The themes > often have done nothing for the artists, who have had to adapt slightly > their already work in progress art to the themes. Sometimes it has been > obvious that no attention has been paid to the themes. The rule has thus > been quite artificial. The technical limitations in the Drawn graphics > were also out of touch with the realities of making "computer graphics" > today. > > Hi! I agree that drawn themed graphics is a little outdated in its rules of conduct, but I still think that at least 3D and 2D art need to have their own categories. Otherwise there is a risk that 2D creations will be out-shined by the 3D creations, thus resulting in a combo without the different flares of style that the freestyle and drawn theme now cater to us. I?m basing this prediction merely on my own assumptions that the assembly voters find 3D art more appealing and i might be horribly mistaken, but still I think this is a point that must be considered before melding these two competition categories. I suggest that instead of combining you might change the titles of the categories from "freestyle" to 3D and from "drawn themed" to 2D. In the 2D category you would have photos, drawings, etc. and 3D would naturally have 3D art. This kind of a categorization is used on various esteemed art forums (i.e. www.cgsociety.org). I also agree that giving themes is not useful as Jussi stated. it?s almost impossible to determine who has followed the given theme and who has just entered an old picture with no consideration towards the theme whatsoever. That?s all! -veera j. From dixan at spinningkids.org Tue Apr 15 11:40:28 2008 From: dixan at spinningkids.org (Cesare Castiglia) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:40:28 +0200 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> Message-ID: jou > "There will be one Music competion (sic) combining the Instrumental music and the Freestyle music compos from previous years. Doesn't look like a major loss to me, most european parties don't have that distinction and still man age to be happy: face it, no one caresa about the music compos. It's not like 10 years ago, when the demoscene was the only creative outlet for amateur musicians, expecially for those using trackers: the web is full of website where people can release music and get it reviewed in a better framework. I'd totally cancel music compos at demoparties, if you ask me, besides those that keep a certain link to the demoscene (executable music, tracked music, music on oldschool platforms). Cheers, dixan / spinning kids - mfx - shitfaced clowns From smaash at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 11:28:12 2008 From: smaash at yahoo.com (smash) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ASM scene] ASSEMBLY Summer 2008 In-Reply-To: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> Message-ID: <383893.99866.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> it sounds like my two biggest logistical issues are going to be fulfilled: 1. a 16:9 bigscreen. and i hope it'll be really *big* this year. last year with the combination of a huge hall, a quite small screen and running 16:9 demos on a 4:3 screen with borders it felt like watching the demos through a small, distant letterbox. i couldnt hardly see some of the things in our demo and i knew they were there. :) after the massive and pin-sharp 1080 hd screen breakpoint had, im hoping assembly can raise their game here. :) and 2. the soundsystem, which has been one of the weakest things in the setup at asm - sound quality-wise as well as for the various screwups in recent years playing entries. (usually the ones by conspiracy. haha.) hoping to see, or rather hear it improved this year. also glad the oldschool area is moving back to where it was best placed. last year it wasnt a place i wanted to spend time in at all. about the music compos, and arguments about bringing back multichannel compos: multichannel is virtually dead. :) the competition was even removed from breakpoint because of the total decline in quality of it over the years. what about e.g. a 32k/64k executable music competition instead though, if there's space/a need for another music compo? -smash /fairlight --- Jussi Laakkonen wrote: > Gents & ladies, > > ASSEMBLY Summer 2008 takes place in roughly 3,5 months, and I'm sure > quite a few of you are already working on your compo entries. Here's a > quick status update on all things demoscene related: > > - compo rule drafts have been published with quite a few big changes at > http://www.assembly.org/summer08/compos > - stereo sound is coming to the main hall > - big screen is going 16x9, exact size to be announced later > - as requested, oldskool has been renamed to demoscene area and moved > back to 3rd floor > - a lounge with screen, projector and audio system etc has been added to > demoscene area. Plug in what you will and show your stuff. > - we need to think if scenebooth should move here (more synergy) or > remain where it is (better visibility to non-sceners). Either way works > for us. > - we are looking for speakers to the ARTtech seminars. Email me if you > are interested. > - if you are interested in doing demos using the "grid demo" > infrastructure (i.e. synching 3000+ screens to a scroller and other > funky stuff), email me =). > - if you are interested in using the big and bright LCD screens in the > main hall to show off some cool stuff, you know what to do (email me! =)) > > This is the 17th ASSEMBLY Summer event and you can expect all the > good things (great compos, cool people, good organizing). We've read > thru (naturally) the thread in which we discussed ASMS07, but in case > there is something you'd like to us to take into account with this > event, do feel free to email me directly. > > Looking forward to seeing many of you at ASSEMBLY Summer 2007! > > -- > Best regards, > > Mr. Jussi Laakkonen (a.k.a Abyss // ASSEMBLY Organizing & FC) > > partner, co-founder ASSEMBLY Organizing Ltd - http://www.assembly.org > cellular: +358-40-582 3959 - snailmail: PL 160, 00381 Helsinki, Finland > _______________________________________________ > Oldskool-list mailing list > Oldskool-list at assembly.org > http://justiina.assembly.org/mailman/listinfo/oldskool-list > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From maija at writeme.com Tue Apr 15 12:10:02 2008 From: maija at writeme.com (Maija Haavisto) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:10:02 -0500 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules Message-ID: <20080415091002.6E71311581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> > "There will be one Music competion (sic) combining the Instrumental > music and the Freestyle music compos from previous years. - - Likewise, > the traditional Drawn Themed graphics and Freestyle graphics have been > combined to a single compeittion (sic)." > > Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a welcome change? No. I am pretty horrified. IMO the distinction between instrumental and non-instrumental music was a bit weird to begin with. Tracked music and freestyle music would have made much more sense. On the other hand, I never had any problems with the idea of drawn graphics and freestyle graphics, or the themes. It is already difficult to choose what to submit to freestyle when you work with photos, photomanips, fractals, traditional paintings etc. Now there's an even bigger problem related to the jury selection: the jury might go for the "wow" factor alone, which would make 3D and probably 3D more likely to get on the screen. Or there might be a jury that thinks digital paintings are more "demosceneish" and then photos, photomanips and such would have a much harder time getting on the screen. In general I feel like 3D has an advantage now. You might say that the jury is unlikely to be homogen(e)ous, but I am sure I am not the only one who has got fed up with juries who think that only songs that sound like epic Hollywood movie soundtracks should be played in the music compo, etc. I am really not happy with this change. I feel like it is one worst decisions the Assembly organizing has ever made, on par with the "brilliant" idea of stuffing the oldskool area into the main hall (luckily that was fixed at least, thanks for that). P.S. I am still available to proofread Assembly related documents, like I've done in the past. :P As a professional writer, the horrible language of the Assembly website always makes me cringe. It just seems to get worse every year. -- %. _ /) That's why I didn't kill myself sooner, the pressure `%-('`._/ ) _ of spelling mistakes. -"5 Suicide Notes" by Saracen Tate `\ \ `'/ Maija Haavisto * DiamonDie @ IRCnet `.___.'mh http://www.fiikus.net -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! From giles at spacepigs.com Tue Apr 15 12:50:40 2008 From: giles at spacepigs.com (Giles Constant) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:50:40 +0100 Subject: [ASM scene] ASSEMBLY Summer 2008 In-Reply-To: <383893.99866.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <383893.99866.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200804151050.40720.giles@spacepigs.com> On Tuesday 15 April 2008 09:28:12 smash wrote: > it sounds like my two biggest logistical issues are going to be fulfilled: > 1. a 16:9 bigscreen. and i hope it'll be really *big* this year. last year Your only logistical issue is getting through an entire party without being slapped in the face with a delicious slice of roast ham, mate. From statik at kolumbus.fi Tue Apr 15 13:26:30 2008 From: statik at kolumbus.fi (Jalmari Raippalinna) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:26:30 +0300 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> Message-ID: <480482D6.4020007@kolumbus.fi> Martti Roitto wrote: > Jussi Laakkonen wrote: > >> - compo rule drafts have been published with quite a few big changes at >> http://www.assembly.org/summer08/compos >> Thanks for combining browser demos with oscilloscopes, pocket calculators, mobile phones, psp and other cool gimmicks :) Most people in Flash demoscene were not amused, not that the quality of browser demo was that good anyway. Although, even our group has some internal speculations if we are doing the Flash demo this year, considering the work it requires with limited probabilities on winning the compo (it's not the prizes, it's the third time in row egoism), unless we figure out some gimmick that wins the large audience. Jalava/evoflash From dixan at spinningkids.org Tue Apr 15 13:50:46 2008 From: dixan at spinningkids.org (Cesare Castiglia) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:50:46 +0200 Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: <480482D6.4020007@kolumbus.fi> References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> <480482D6.4020007@kolumbus.fi> Message-ID: jou > unless we figure out some gimmick that wins the large audience. Tits, scene poetry, plot/storytelling, breasts, Commodore references, Lego, volumetrics, virtuoso guitar solos, boobs. regrds, dixan / spinningkids - mfx - shitfaced clowns From ne7 at napalm-x.com Tue Apr 15 20:37:05 2008 From: ne7 at napalm-x.com (ne7/napalm) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ASM scene] New compo rules In-Reply-To: References: <4803BCFA.1070103@assembly.org> <4803D889.4040101@utu.fi> <48043C07.7090602@assembly.org> Message-ID: hey all, my thoughts on the music compo are: 1) the music compos at BP work fine, why not just clone these? 2) and any sort of sized nuskool/oldskool exe music compo seems like a great idea! 3) plus on the tracked music front my opinion always has been whats the point in releasing a tracker tune if its 3-4mb in size? i mean u may as well release an mp3 ;) and it -is- a shame the tracked compos have died out but i'd argue the exe compo (especially if it is size limited) is where these can sit anyway... 4) a lot of people -do- care about the music compos - there were a hell of a lot of people at BP just sitting in front of the big screen listening to the tunes in all the music compos ;P ne7 ---------------------------------------------- -- - ne7 / napalm ^ rebels ^ scoopex ^ triad ----------------------------------------------- -- - On Tue, 15 Apr 2008, Jouko Karhula wrote: > Hello, > > /me votes BIG TIME for any kind of tracked music visibility for Assembly :) > > I think that in BP the competitions were just great, with those categories: > http://breakpoint.untergrund.net/compos_music.php > > It gave something for anybody: > - Streaming music compo, so virtually anything big size stuff could be there > (tracked, free style, whatever...) > - Cool Oldschool compo, with those normal oldschool rules (well size limit > was 32k for exe) > - Newschool compo with 32k limit, so most tracked/softsynth/etc stuff could > be here > (having 4k limit would definitely drop off for example .it or .xm entries, > so at least this 32k or > even 64k would allow some creativity there as well). > > And stereo sound this time... finally!!! For example Amiga tunes having > those > channels mixed into mono did sound really horrible in last years at Assembly > :) > > - Jouko "DJ Joge" Karhula > > On 15/04/2008, Jussi Laakkonen wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> Am I the only one who doesn't see this as a welcome change? >> >> I'll let our Compocrew chime in on the details, but from my >> perspective having more categories does not correlate with better >> competitions, higher quality entries or with higher voter interest. I >> think the correlation is actually negative. >> >> Gloom kindly did some analysis in the thread were we discussed music >> compos after ASMS07, and it was pretty clear that almost nobody >> including demosceners on this list, bothered to vote in the two music >> compos. Improving the quality of the compo thru combining the >> artificially divided categories as well as the introducing a new sound >> system should improve this. We are also looking to other improvements in >> the music compo, but more about that later. >> >> The Drawn themed graphics has been a bit of hit and miss. The themes >> often have done nothing for the artists, who have had to adapt slightly >> their already work in progress art to the themes. Sometimes it has been >> obvious that no attention has been paid to the themes. The rule has thus >> been quite artificial. The technical limitations in the Drawn graphics >> were also out of touch with the realities of making "computer graphics" >> today. >> >> I've been thinking about multichannel, and perhaps the right place >> would be to add it to oldskool music compo but with 4k limit. >> Multichannel in the days of old was simply yet-another-streaming music >> compo with huge samples being used. Perhaps with a size limitation it >> could be re-introduced as a platform for oldskool music. >> >> Perhaps something similar (executable graphics in 4k?) could be added >> as a platform for oldskool graphics. >> >> Comments are very welcome as these are very early thoughts. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Oldskool-list mailing list >> Oldskool-list at assembly.org >> http://justiina.assembly.org/mailman/listinfo/oldskool-list >> >